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 Post subject: Idir
PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep 2020 7:15 pm 
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According to Nualéargais, idir does not trigger lenition when you're referring to distance, time, difference, or opposition. Ó Dónaill says that it only occurs in "certain phrases with agus", but he gives examples such as idir Baile Átha Cliath agus Corcaigh and A bhfuil idir pingin agus punt (and thus without agus, idir thithe, teacht idir dhaoine, etc.). Is Nualéargais right as long as you're using agus (by the way, one of the examples given by Ó Dónaill is idir shúgradh is dáiríre (unlenited), which is followed by idir gháire agus ghol - is that a mistake?)?


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Thu 10 Sep 2020 8:37 am 
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Esszet wrote:
According to Nualéargais, idir does not trigger lenition when you're referring to distance, time, difference, or opposition. Ó Dónaill says that it only occurs in "certain phrases with agus", but he gives examples such as idir Baile Átha Cliath agus Corcaigh and A bhfuil idir pingin agus punt (and thus without agus, idir thithe, teacht idir dhaoine, etc.). Is Nualéargais right as long as you're using agus (by the way, one of the examples given by Ó Dónaill is idir shúgradh is dáiríre (unlenited), which is followed by idir gháire agus ghol - is that a mistake?)?


I see no contradiction:

idir Baile Átha Cliath agus Corcaigh - distance -> no lenition
A bhfuil idir pingin agus punt - all what's between a penny and a pound, difference -> no lenition
idir thithe - (a gap) between houses, no distance -> lenition
teacht idir dhaoine - (dispute) coming between people, no distance -> lenition

If you can substitute idir by "from point X to point Y" (locally, temporally or figuratively) -> no lenition.

If you say "Ba chóir deich slata a bheith idir tithe an bhaile" - There should be 10 yards between the houses of the town -> tithe is not lenited because it's a distance (= 10 yd)
If you say "Tá mé ag siúil idir thithe an bhaile" - I 'm walking between the houses of the town - There is no distance. You're just walking on the grass/ways between houses, so there is lenition. - except you walk from door to door, then no lenition ;)


idir shúgradh is dáiríre - half playing, half seriously, -> lenition
dáríre unlenited because of dntls (is dáiríre)

Lars


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:46 am 
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^ ^
"Go díreach ó bhéal an chapaill" mar a deirtear i mBéarla. ;) :


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep 2020 5:35 pm 
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GRMA arís eile, a Labhráis, I guess with opposition, it would be:

cogadh idir Sasana agus Albain
iomaíocht idir New York agus Boston (don't know if lenition would ever apply there)

Maybe even:

troid idir líobralaithe agus coimeádaigh (ideological distance?)

But:

cogadh idir thíre
cluiche idir Bhaile Átha Cliath agus Chorcaigh (it's just players on a field)

I wasn't expecting the dentals rule to apply there, agus is not the trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Fri 18 Sep 2020 12:00 pm 
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Esszet wrote:
GRMA arís eile, a Labhráis, I guess with opposition, it would be:

cogadh idir Sasana agus Albain
iomaíocht idir New York agus Boston (don't know if lenition would ever apply there)

Maybe even:

troid idir líobralaithe agus coimeádaigh (ideological distance?)

But:

cogadh idir thíre
cluiche idir Bhaile Átha Cliath agus Chorcaigh (it's just players on a field)


Sorry for the delay, I read your post but I forgot to answer
(... have forgotten? I'm bad in English grammar :))

I'd say:
cogadh idir tíortha (tíortha plural, tíre genitive sing.)
cluiche idir Baile Átha Cliath agus Corcaigh

Both without lenition.
1) It doesn't make any difference whether two nouns in singular or one noun in plural is following: "Cogadh/cluiche/troid idir" + nonlenition
2) It doesn't make any difference in what context you use "cluiche idir ...".

Quote:
I wasn't expecting the dentals rule to apply there, agus is not the trigger.


Agus is at least the trigger for non-lenition of d (and t,l,n,s)
/s ɣ / is much more difficult to pronounce than /s d/ and lenition is originally a way to ease pronunciation.
Any non-lenition being easier to utter than lenition is preferred. That's the reason for lenition-exemption rules and dntls-rule in particular.
(on the other hand /s ɣ/ is easier than /s g/ so words with g are lenited.)


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Sat 19 Sep 2020 4:03 pm 
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OK, thanks, and it's fine, there's no hurry.

Labhrás wrote:
Sorry for the delay, I read your post but I forgot to answer
(... have forgotten? I'm bad in English grammar :))


No, that's right, and you've always seemed fine to me, the exact wording is sometimes a little odd, but I don't remember you ever saying anything ungrammatical.

I guess it makes sense with agus, I just thought mutation could only be affected by triggers and not intervening words (which are, as far as mutation is concerned, rare anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:08 pm 
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An even easier rule:

Lenition is used when "idir" means "among(st)", "under", "amidst", "including X and Y", "partly x, partly y".
Lenition is not used when "idir" means "between X <-> Y".


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Sun 20 Sep 2020 1:59 pm 
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Thanks, but the general rule is no lenition if you can trace a path from X to Y...right?


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Sun 20 Sep 2020 6:52 pm 
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Esszet wrote:
Thanks, but the general rule is no lenition if you can trace a path from X to Y...right?


Yes.
As T. de Bhaldraithe wrote in Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: No lenition if "cursaí suímh tá i gceist leis"

BTW:
In dialects things differ. In Cork, there's lenition only in the first noun, even in "cursaí suímh".
e.g. idir Bhaile Átha Cliath is Corcaigh.


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 Post subject: Re: Idir
PostPosted: Tue 22 Sep 2020 1:11 am 
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Yeah, that's what I figured, it seems there are twenty-two different exceptions to every grammatical rule in twenty-two different dialects.


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