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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 5:43 pm 
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Gortaleen wrote:
There was a review in "The Irish Monthly" journal of Réilthíní Óir (Cuid a haon) noting that the book is a collection of words from the Clare and Kerry dialects:
L. McK. The Irish Monthly 50, no. 589 (1922): 301–301. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20505888.


That doesn't mean that all of the words in Réilthíní Óir are only found in West Munster. You are making wild statements without proof. I am categorically not saying that your conclusion is false, but rather that it remains to be shown. The "proof" you've offered here would be insufficient in a PhD viva voce.


Last edited by djwebb2021 on Sat 16 Oct 2021 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 5:44 pm 
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Gortaleen wrote:
Read Father McClune's foreword. If you want to contradict him, find an earlier non-Munster Dialect record of caighdeán.


I will not do your research for you. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 6:24 pm 
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Fixed a couple of typos:

It appears the that caighdeán was a Munster Dialect word that entered the broader lexicon in 1992 1922 via this book:

Réilthíní Óir

Cuid a 1 Mac CLúin

An t-ath. Seóirse Mac Clúin,

Ollamh le Gaoluinn,

Coláiste Fhlannáin, Inis, Co. an Cláir

1922

...

Caighdeán--nó caidhdeán==faid dhá mhogal de líon==

marc, tomhas, comhartha. Indiu Lá an chaighdeán ag Dáil

Éireann==an marc-Lá, an sprioc-Lá, an Lá ar a raibh

ceapaithe aca teacht le cheile. Níl aon chaighdeán fós leis

an Lá go bhfuighmíd cúntas==marc, níl aon rud a déarfadh

linn cad é an Lá. Tá caighdeán eile le cruinniú na n-Óglaoch

==téarma, tomhas.

Réilthíní Óir

Cuid a 1 Mac CLúin

An t-ath. Seóirse Mac Clúin,

Ollamh le Gaoluinn,

Coláiste Fhlannáin, Inis, Co. an Cláir

1922

...

Caighdeán--nó caidhdeán==faid dhá mhogal de líon==

marc, tomhas, comhartha. Indiu Lá an chaighdeán ag Dáil

Éireann==an marc-Lá, an sprioc-Lá, an Lá ar a raibh

ceapaithe aca teacht le cheile. Níl aon chaighdeán fós leis

an Lá go bhfuighmíd cúntas==marc, níl aon rud a déarfadh

linn cad é an Lá. Tá caighdeán eile le cruinniú na n-Óglaoch

==téarma, tomhas.


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 7:06 pm 
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I'm afraid, a Ghuirt a' Lín, that use of spellings like gh in Seanachló are just wrong. Seanachló used the dot for lenition: ġ. Irish people are typically contemptuous of their own heritage, for some reason.

Caiġdeán


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 7:55 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
I'm afraid, a Ghuirt a' Lín, that use of spellings like gh in Seanachló are just wrong. Seanachló used the dot for lenition: ġ. Irish people are typically contemptuous of their own heritage, for some reason.

Caiġdeán

The use of the punctum delens to indicate lenition is a shorthand. In the pre-digital media era it saved ink and it saved effort to use the dot instead of an "h" to indicate lenition. In the current case, it would take considerable effort to change all the lenited letters in the excerpt from using the "h" to using the punctum delens.


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 7:59 pm 
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Gortaleen wrote:
The use of the punctum delens to indicate lenition is a shorthand. In the pre-digital media era it saved ink and it saved effort to use the dot instead of an "h" to indicate lenition. In the current case, it would take considerable effort to change all the lenited letters in the excerpt from using the "h" to using the punctum delens.

It's not shorthand; just wrong. There really is no point to the Gaelic Revival if people can't be bothered to respect the culture. It would not take any effort at all to use the correct letters. I have a keyboard set up on my computer to type fluently in seanachló.


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Oct 2021 8:01 pm 
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The Irish Revival has always been dominated by L2 learners in Dublin who had no time for the real language, as Peadar Ua Laoghaire pointed out.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Oct 2021 3:08 pm 
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Gortaleen wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
I'm afraid, a Ghuirt a' Lín, that use of spellings like gh in Seanachló are just wrong. Seanachló used the dot for lenition: ġ. Irish people are typically contemptuous of their own heritage, for some reason.

Caiġdeán

The use of the punctum delens to indicate lenition is a shorthand. In the pre-digital media era it saved ink and it saved effort to use the dot instead of an "h" to indicate lenition. In the current case, it would take considerable effort to change all the lenited letters in the excerpt from using the "h" to using the punctum delens.

It's like saying Czech š is a shorthand for sh. No, it isn't.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct 2021 6:35 pm 
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Location: Melbourne
Thanks for sharing this interesting article.


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PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct 2021 11:46 am 
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Walericator wrote:
Thanks for sharing this interesting article.
There's more to the story of caighdeán.

Fr Clune notes in the foreword to his book Réilthíní Óir that most of the terminology in the book came from the islands off of County Kerry.

Tomás Ó Criomhthain relates in An t-Oileánach of Fr Clune spending nearly two months of eight hour days with Tomás gathering information for Réilthíní Óir. Tomás notes that this was the most grueling time of his life...

I haven't seen the latest version of Tomás' book now called An tOileánach but it's reported that it now includes Tomás' gripe about not being mentioned in Réilthíní Óir.

It's true that Fr Clune thanked others for helping with his book in its foreword but he only makes an oblique reference to the isles off of Kerry and he doesn't mention Tomás at all.


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